Should Christians obey the Torah?

[davidreubenstone]

Oct 5, 2013 18:13:17 GMT -6 Ron said:

The Psalms can be very uplifting during hard times so I am going to add them here one by one.

Psalm 1
The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly

Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper. The ungodly are not so, But are like the chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

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Hi there...

Did you ever notice that Psalm 1 implies we should obey the law (Hebrew: "Torah").

Do you agree that Christians should obey the Torah?

best,
David

[Ron]

Christians should obey the entire Bible. In Deuteronomy Moses predicted the coming of "the Prophet" which was Jesus Christ and said we are required to follow any changes He makes in the law.(should be: His fulfillment of the Law.)

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. -- Deuteronomy 18:18-19

John 1 shows that the Jews understood that "the Prophet" to be the Messiah.

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that Prophet? And he answered, No. -- John 1:19-21

Jesus came to completely fulfill the law, and then it was changed.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:17-20

In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. -- Hebrews 8:13

Paul says in Hebrews 8-10 that Jesus made a necessary change in the covenant, the law, and the priesthood, so we follow the entire Bible as dictated by Moses and changed by the Messiah.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. -- John 1:29

One practical example of a change is that since Jesus died we no longer do animal sacrifices.

[Ron]

After further study on this subject, I would like to add Acts 15 summarizes this quite well. It tells about the Jerusalem council and the conflict over circumcision.

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell. -- Acts 15:22-29

[davidreubenstone]

Hello! Thanks for your answer.

You wrote: "Jesus came to completely fulfill the law, and then it was changed."

My response: Matthew 5:19 confirms that our position in the coming kingdom depends on our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching...yet you claim this Torah is no longer applicable? Yikes! That's a pretty dangerous position to take in light of the consequences of Torah-lessness (Gr. "anomia") in Mt. 7:21-23 and Mt. 13:41-42.

Also, the Torah of Moses will indeed pass away, but that's still a FUTURE event! (See Gr. "engoos" in Heb. 8:13, which confirms that it is READY to vanish away, which means it had not yet vanished away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.)

Remember, the prophets GUARANTEE future restoration of ceremonial/Levitical Torah (Jer. 33; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30:8; Mal. 2 through Mal. 3; etc.). So, the Torah of Moses is clearly not yet passed away. It's simply not fully observable during this present diaspora.

Also, the English word "change" is a poor translation which carries an incorrect connotation in Heb. 7:12. Did anything in the Levitical priesthood change? No. Did the Melchizedek priesthood change? No. Think "transfer". The writer of Heb. 7:12 asks us to transfer our focus upon our Messiah's preeminent function in the superior Melchizedek priesthood and its associated law. But that's no excuse to ignore our obligation to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses.

Remember what is written upon our hearts in the New Covenant? TORAH! (Jer. 31:33). So Torah is to be upon our hearts so that we OBEY it.

That's why Paul says that Torah-obedience (Dt. 30:11-14) IS THE VERY WORD OF FAITH which Paul preached (Rom. 10:8 applies Dt. 30:11-14 to US). Think "faithful Torah-obedience".

You wrote: "So we follow the entire Bible as dictated by Moses and changed by the Messiah."

My response: If the Messiah changed the Torah, then he violated Dt. 4:2. Violation of Dt. 4:2 (or any other Torah-violation) is SIN (Rom. 3:20; Rom. 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4). And, if the Messiah sinned, then he wasn't a perfect sinless sacrifice. Therefore, let's stop saying that Jesus changed Torah.

Finally, Acts 15 never says that Gentile converts should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah. Rather, it addresses this question: Should Gentile converts be required to be circumcised AND obey the Torah of Moses so as to be accepted as SAVED (Gr. "sodzo", in Ac. 15:1,11)? The answer to this question is "no". Peter affirms we are saved by grace (Ac. 15:11), not by circumcision and Torah-obedience.

Nevertheless, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 TO US (1 Pe. 1:16), thereby proving that Peter expects Christians to grow in faithful obedience to the Torah of Moses AFTER they are saved by grace.

Remember, Paul took a vow to prove his OBEDIENCE to Torah and to prove his support for infant circumcision (Ac. 21:21-24). We should imitate this Pauline example (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9) and likewise promote Torah-obedience, not oppose it as you apparently do!

Remember? Jesus said we should LOVE God (Mt. 22:37, which applies Dt. 6 to US!) And, Dt. 6:25 shows that we love God by obeying ALL Torah commands. Yet you reject this very passage which Jesus applies to us?

YIKES! We really do need to address this issue!

Please continue our dialogue so that we may explore this issue together. I desire the best for you, but your opposition to Torah is opposed to the Scriptures themselves, and this places you in a dangerous position.

blessings,
David Reuben Stone
email: [e-mail]